Concurrently with each initiative, London Performance Studios will be making available to the public a series of interviews with various partners, participants, and artists. These interviews, as part of London Performance Studios’ mission of organisational transparency, make the detailed thinking that informs each initiative accessible to everyone.

THAN HUSSEIN CLARK: So we're recording now. You were just telling me about the research work you're doing at Central, and I loved the words that you used to describe it—I don't think I've heard it before but you used the word “brave” in relation to spaces.

BECKY STOCKLEY: Yeah, I'm gonna have to cite this now [laughs].

THC: I thought that was a really interesting place to begin our conversation, because it struck me as a kind of re-framing of the term “safe space.”

BS: Yeah, that's exactly it.

THC: So what is a brave space for you?

BS: That’s kind of what I'm figuring out. I often feel like the term “safe space” is actually way of phrasing things to make them palatable to people who don't face oppression. Because all the “safe spaces” I've been in haven’t felt safe at all. The conversation can very quickly move in a way that makes me feel like I can't actually speak—or that if I do speak, I'm on a soapbox and suddenly the whole room goes silent. There's no structure or framework in place to provide a way of confronting difficult situations. For people to receive uncomfortable information in this way does feel inherently connected, to me, to the nature of a systemic oppression, to systemic racism. So “brave spaces” by contrast are spaces where people are empowered to confront uncomfortable spaces, but they’re empowered by knowing that what you say generates a reaction, and that you can find ways of being able to deal with and understand that reaction.

THC: So it's this space that enables bravery in people.

BS: Yeah, from both sides. Bravery to speak your truth and to speak your experience, and also bravery to take it, to digest it and to hear it. It has to be facilitated in a very careful way—there has to be a framework in place, like I said, a system with all the participants of mutual respect, that clarifies how we deal with things when they do get quite personal. The idea of people “agreeing to disagree” favours the side of the oppressor, because it just silences the one being oppressed. It's actually not okay, we can't continue to “agree to disagree,” that doesn't fix anything. It just puts a full stop in the conversation, and nothing really gets fixed or moves forward. Quite often I’ve come away from those kind of spaces feeling like I'm the one left to digest this and deal with this, and to pay for therapy on it. It needs to be brave for both sides, both parties. Plus I love that phrase, brave spaces. I just think it’s cool.

THC: It’s a really good way to begin talking about the work that you're going to do here, thank you. It also actually called to mind Ben Spatz for me too, who was writing about using S&M community contracts as a way of articulating the kind of system that you are talking about, although of course it’s a little different. But when you said brave spaces it reminded me of their articulation—that “safe space” implies things being made palatable, whereas a brave space, within those communities, doesn't necessarily mean that power dynamics are ignored in the room. Power dynamics are acknowledged and are actually actively created in such a way that they're completely consensual.

BS: Absolutely.

THC: So it’s an interesting way of re-framing some of these conversations that have been so present over the last couple of years.

BS: If I’m the only non binary person in the room it can feel like there's a pressure to speak for all non-binary people, but I really think that if there's a clear system or framework in place it can be very freeing. There's something to fall back on, there's something to keep things on track. I think that's freeing and empowering for everyone involved. There’s a sort of push and a pull. But it's facilitated in such a way that you're held—so even if the session ends, the conversation still is being digested, it continues. It’s always kind of an ellipsis, so we work through the disagreement, we discuss it further, and it just keeps the ball rolling. That's how change will happen, and that's how like different stories will be heard, I think.

THC: How would you say some of this thinking—whether the idea of a brave space or the idea of clear systems of consent, discussion of ground rules and so on—how will that inform the workshop that you'll be doing here? 

BS: It starts with very simple and quite basic things, but things that I think are often totally overlooked—so for example just allowing people to have a moment in the space when they enter. Just taking it in, finding where they wanna be and where they feel good, doing a check-in at the start. I think for my class I'm so excited because the reach-out has been crazy and out of the people who are contacting me, there’s already so many trans-people. So just to be able to form a circle, check in with your name and pronouns, have like everyone's pronouns being something like non-binary or he-they or she. And to feel like everyone's got that lived experience is gonna be amazing, because there are so many times that it's terrifying to even say your name and pronouns 'cause you're the only one or you feel like so othered. Consent to touch is huge for me. Even just with like a standard gesture that I'll show everyone to establish what this is. Especially when you're processing something and you don't really wanna be critiqued or corrected—just for people to give a gesture to let me know. So checking in and consent to touch first and foremost, and the rest I’m mulling over before setting the form.

THC: It's a powerful image, that moment of that circle and the introduction, the check-in—for people involved in performance practices it’s a kind of a classic moment or image, and your description here actually also makes it something very moving. What kind of practices will you then be exploring in the class? Will there be particular methodologies you'll be drawing on in relation to the kind of guidelines that you're talking about—and have you adapted those in particular ways for queer and trans performers? 

BS: Yeah, big time. And it’s something I’m working on all the time too. At the moment I'm testing a out so much that is just to do with the language. My movement heritage is quite eclectic—I draw on ballet, which is so binary, and is something I gained experience in when I had she-her pronouns, and I've come back to it as a non-binary person and it's taken a lot of deconstructing and processing. I've taken that and kind of re-moulded it in a way so it can be useful for posture, alignment, confidence—as a way of thinking about standing up tall, and taking up space, jumping, that kind of thing. I’m drawing on moments from Cunningham’s work, which is quite contemporary, in terms of finding the breath, deep breath. That just can be so empowering, and so important in day-to-day life. It’s also typically centered around the spine and the torso, which I find problematic for many reasons, you know, the spine holds a lot of trauma for everyone, I think. But for trans people it can also be a source of insecurity or even dysphoria. So I’m using myself to explore this and to be asking: Ok, what’s the language that I need here? Do I need to move away from the body and use imagery in order to have people feeling the expanse of their chest, to feel their back expand, to find the kinesphere and unite it with the breath.

THC: It's really interesting. Because people talk about psychophysical technique and here you’re speaking about dysphoria and completely re-contextualising these terms. What you’re describing here too about the breath and how that's always placed around the hips and the diaphragm makes attention to this shift in language absolutely vital—it becomes about focusing on the need to find a different type of language; one that doesn’t end up actually limiting and restricting people and the changing states they might be experiencing in those very attempts to be somehow “freeing” or liberating.

BS: Yeah, absolutely.

THC: It leads on to to something else I wanted to ask about too which has to do with the lectures the Stanislavsky Centre has been hosting called “The S Word,” and the work people are doing on challenging the notion of a neutral body of the performer. Part of what you’re talking about here also relates to the language of teaching and how that may have different effects. 

BS: Yeah—so when I think of the neutral body it’s inherently a male body or a cis male body. So many practitioners have based their work around the cis male body. For me that feels like a body that's kind of grown up in a cloud and nothing’s ever really touched it. And that's certainly not the case for queer and trans bodies. So I feel really strongly that we should acknowledge that trauma has happened or that systemic oppression is still happening, and that on a personal level, we're dealing with so many of these things within our own bodies. It's not neutral, nothing about it is neutral. I think you have to acknowledge that and you're not gonna feel embodied. You're not gonna find embodiment. You're not gonna feel present until we acknowledge that's a thing, and have a space where it's okay to explore it, work through it, and until we make and find time to feel safe and included and surrounded by other bodies who are also dealing with the same or similar scenarios.

THC: Absolutely. It reminds me too of being a kid and just thinking like I'm too camp to act. That I'm too to queer to like ever have a career—it felt like “the first acting job I have to do is learn to like be straight.” And I always was like, Why am I always getting the scene from Angels in America, like what’s going on? In this weird idea that as a 13 year old boy, I would have somehow a stronger line of empathy to an AIDS patient obsessed with Bette Davis, in the 1980s—when that’ just as far from my experience as anything else. Like I might as well be playing a football player, you know it's funny. These kind of strange like attempts to position yourself, to be some version of like a character performer, even from that age.

BS: Yeah.

THC: Can you maybe talk me through what a participant could expect on the course in practical terms, would it look like? What can a person coming to the class expect to experience? 

BS: So we will always start with a check-in, where we gather in a circle and we each just say our name, our pronouns, and just a bit about what brought you to the class, what your thing is, like what you do? I've had illustrators, I've had tattoo artists, actors, dancers, all sorts. I think it's just nice to see that eclectic mix. It also gives me a good sense of where we are, like ok what’s the vibe here. And then the class will start with good music, always. We'll move through a gentle warm up, which will absolutely be led by me, it won't leave anyone. There'll be no, sort of, learning and then performing. We'll move slowly through the body. We'll wake up the breath, we'll wake up the spine, probably a lot of walking around the space. Just sort of finding our body, finding our spine, seeing how tall we can stand, and just awakening that the back space as well. We often forget, especially now after having been online for two years, that we have a back of our body. And then we would move through a fundamental movement sequence involving the posture from ballet, fundamental movement from Cunningham, a bit of my own flavour, some general core exercises. Just strengthening, 'cause I want people to feel strong. We'll move through that really slowly, step by step. I'll break it down, so that even if you're an experienced dancer, it's so good to just go back to those basics and reconnect with your alignment. I would also really love to touch on some of my hip hop background, and find some grooves, and just let loose a bit, and show people flow, and how they can manipulate their muscles, and find a bit of groove, how they can connect in a social dance kind of way. We can move, then we'll connect, and we'll dance together. And then we'll possibly end with some movement set to music, but if that's not the vibe, then we'll go a different way. And if we're just all out for having a boogie and a dance, that I'll hold that space. The close of the session is a definite, really good cool-down, a re-centering, so you’re ready to leave the space in a safe way, or a brave way—you’re ready to fight the world, go about your day. And a check-out together for sure on how we're feeling, where our thoughts are. There’ll always be a bit of time just to connect with each other, and to chat, and to see, to share experiences. And the whole time, I'll be there to hold the space and facilitate it. But it's a work in progress. Week by week, it would probably evolve.

THC: It’s really nice to hear so much about your dance background. It's really impressive. I was interested in what you said there about how you see this class also being something open to people who may be don't totally identify as dancers, but also maybe more actors, or performance artists, or something like that, and what they might be able to take away from it?

BS: Yeah, absolutely. That's kind of why this seed of the idea came to me actually, because there seems to be such a gap for people who act, and want to move, but who don't feel comfortable going to dance classes. That's my passion, helping people to reconnect with the movement side, with the fundamental movement, with alignment. Just stretching our limbs and finding our kinesphere, keeping the body moving, working. So for actors, it's gonna be a space for reconnecting with some of the skills they found in training (if they did train), or just stretching the limbs, stretching the muscles, finding the breath, the posture, the spine, all of that. And the connection to the floor as well—just laying on the floor and feeling gravity. It's just sort of reconnecting mind and body, finding some confidence And this is in all of my class, although we go through it really slowly, and there's a rhythm to it. I'll be counting, that's how I work. It’s about getting the brain back in the motion, so that when those moments of auditions or panels or tests of any kind do arise, for dancers, for actors, for anyone working in the creative industry, where you're suddenly in front of a panel of whoever… it isn't a freak out. We’re saying "Okay. This is in my body. This is in my brain. I feel like I can stand up tall, and I can do my best with this, and I can take it, and then I can walk away proud."

THC: Yeah, that's amazing. Obviously this class will be filling a gap for our queer and trans performers, and I wondered if you could tell me a little bit about how this filling this gap and providing this class is gonna address some very specific needs that trans and queer performers are facing, and that they are not getting the support that they need with? 

BS: Yeah. Okay, why did I wanna do this? So I trained in musical theatre, and before that I trained in ballet, and I worked in musical theatre, and at the time, my pronouns were she/her, but inside I really aligned with the queer experience, and felt queer—I’m a lesbian, so the whole time I felt othered, and eventually I decided, okay, enough is enough, like this just isn't for me. I don't fit this box. I got really fed up of feeling so judged on having short hair or not fitting into a binary mould, which I feel resonates with so many people and queer people. And I'm now at a point where I am able to look back and really pinpoint moments that the damage was done and recognise what it did, how it made me feel and how I can change that—how I can create a practice not that fixes it, because of course it can’t be fixed as such, but that reframes and re-evaluates it. And that can instill confidence in people, instead of breaking people down and undermining them. There are more and more people feeling empowered to come out with different pronouns, to use non-binary pronouns, to be openly transgender, which is so amazing. And although the industry is starting to move, there is an element of it feeling gimmicky and trendy. For shows it often feels like we're hitting a quota. So these queer and trans bodies finally have a space in the room, but without necessarily having had the training or the space to train that prepares them for those spaces and the ways those spaces are going to be impacting them. I think it's amazing to have young trans performers come to me and ask how do I look more masculine? How do I look more feminine? How do I align, because even though they're trans and maybe their pronouns are non-binary or they/them or, they still have to align with a binary gender to pass to get work. And it's a problem. But unfortunately, it's the nature of the industry that we're in, and the shows that are out there and being reproduced. So I just want a space where people can come and feel trans and feel really great in being trans and feel like this is my trans-body, it's powerful, it's strong, and I can do what I want with it. I'm still trans if I do something that's more feminine, or I'm still trans if I do something more masculine.It’s about helping people to recognise how to present in different ways, how to find a physicality that may align with those things while still feeling empowered in their gender identity.

THC: I think that's so powerful—I think it's a really interesting point you talk about both with trans people, trans and queer bodies, but also the bodies of people of colour. The industry may see that it needs to move, and whether those moves are genuine or not remains to be seen. I remember seeing a training session online last year where someone talks how about for their students of colour, conservatory training was learning to be White. So for different bodies, these training institutions haven't prepared them to fill the space that may or may not be opening up for them. I think that is a very, very powerful argument. Do you feel it’s right then to say that for trans or non-binary people, they may be faced within the industry with a sense that casting also a question of passing? 

BS: It's very loaded. I have to be real about it—at the end of the day, I want trans and queer bodies to get work and be on stages. But realistically, there's a long way to go, not least because the characters haven't been written yet, there characters literally aren’t yet there to play. They're being written, the shows are being made, slowly and surely, but it also feel like the in thing right now for casting, which is problematic in so many ways. It does mean that queer bodies, trans bodies are getting in those rooms, where previously they wouldn’t—they're getting opportunities to show up, to be there. But I guess what I meant was that the material that they're being asked to present hasn't changed, so they're still being asked to go in for either a male or a female role. So the expectations haven't changed, just because they're queer or trans. So yeah, it's loaded and it's difficult.

THC: Yeah. So it’s not only about opening up the industry but opening up the craft.

BS: That's it. That's it, yeah.

THC: To be able to make those same decisions and to be able to use every bit of their instrument, every bit of their body to play the character that they want to play, not the character society assumes  they should be playing. Where it's also demanding the same creative freedom that cis White heterosexual bodies have always had.

BS: That's it. That is it, and it can be as simple as saying, Okay, I'm going in for a male part. Well, what do cis men do? They take up a lot of space.

THC: Exactly, yeah.

BS: So I’ll stand up tall, be broad, move with conviction. There you go. And it's as simple as that. But it's like, it's coming from a place of understanding, of having stepped back and observed, and though ok, what can I feed you? Like, what can what can we do here? It's a conversation like you said, it's an open conversation. Let's play and see what your body can do. Because if you feel confident in the decision you're making, and you commit to it, that's all that matters. If you feel embodied, and your muscles are working, your body's working, and you feel strong and confident, that's all that matters to me. That's all I want. I want people to stand up.

THC: It also reframes the idea of passing, in a way because passing becomes acting, and acting is an active process that the performer is in control of. Whereas passing of course is actually something that comes from someone else.

BS: Yeah, like reclaiming the body. The body that we've been made to feel like needs to pass or the pressure to be androgynous, the pressure to look a certain way. And just reclaiming that for yourself and for the individual. With the freedom to choose, to make decisions. Yeah, it's exciting.

THC: I also wanted to talk with you a little bit about some of the neurodivergent stuff we touched on before, and the way that’s dealt with or not in training too. I totally relate to you about in the training I've done, because for me, given the way my brain is wired, a lot of the training makes me have a panic attack. So I wondered if you could talk about your thoughts on that a little bit.

BS: Yeah. So, what's been really nice is that I feel like I'm at the beginning of my learning about ADHD. And although it's obviously it's been a huge part of my life, only now am I realising that it's been so integral to my makeup and, and how I see the world and how I process information. And as a teacher, as a facilitator, it's had a huge effect on how I perceive situations. I've realised the importance of empathy and of a culture of empathy between teacher and student. Not within an old school framework of teacher and student, but again, something as simple as consent to touch, and just recognising in myself first what I need in a space and what I can offer. What I don't feel like I can offer. For example I can't always offer eye contact when someone's talking to me. If I'm asked to close my eyes and be still, it's a no go, and I'm instantly out and I'm instantly not embodied and I don't want to be there. But when someone says, okay, close your eyes or have a soft focus, and we're gonna stand still. Or if you need to move, you can move. That then feels ok because I have permission, I have permission to be me. I have permission to move. Some days you'll find that you're really embodied and you can just breathe and it comes really easily and you're more focused. And then other days you're not in your body and you can't focus—and I guess it's just about a culture of empathy, like I said, and just freeing people to know that there's no right or wrong way. Each body is different. Each experience is different. There's usually music happening. I'm usually speaking over the music, and then I get too excited, and I do ask people to let me know when that happens—when I'm jumping, and I'm talking so much because I'm so passionate. And I think as a facilitator, I am really comfortable in sharing that, because we’re all on the same level. I don't see myself as above anyone. We're all there for a specific reason. I'm there to empower people. I wanna facilitate a space. So it's opened my eyes, and I think there's so much joy in how people's brains work differently. I think it's amazing. So I'm all ears. And I'm happy to share my own experience if that makes people feel freer to be themselves and to take what they need. And also to feel empowered, and not like they can't speak, you know? 

THC: It’s so interesting, because if a practice that's all supposed to be about empowering someone doesn't take into account the ways that bodies are different, brains are different, it can actually end up incapacitating that person without realising it.

THC: I know we both also wanted to talk about some of the specific safeguarding measures that we put in place for this workshop, and that we will be adjusting and making sure we adhere to. Do you wanna talk about some of those? 

BS: Yes. So these are newer studios, and their location is quite out of the way. The streets are residential, so in the evening when it’s dark we’ll have a system in place for walking together as a group, especially if you haven’t been there before. So I'll be at New Cross Gate station, which is about a 20 minute walk away. I’ll just be there, almost like on a school trip [laughs]. We’ll wait a little while to make sure everyone’s been able to arrive and join us, and then we'll walk together as a group to the studios. Of course people can also come to the studios on their own. And if people need to be picked up from the station or taken to and from the session without walking then we can provide that too. Because my first thought was “Okay. How do I keep these people safe?" And that was something we agreed together and so I'm super exited.

THC: Yeah it was one of our very first conversations—it’s something that’s super important to us here generally too and always has been. Because I've been in this building for seven years and I've never had any trouble—but of course travelling to the area and walking at night when it’s not always clearly lit and so on can be intimidating for people. So we're very happy to be providing transport for people back to the nearest public transportation. And also, Becky had a great idea. I love the idea of a school trip. We need to give you like an LPS flag or something.

BS: Like an umbrella, you know? [laughter]

THC: Exactly [laughs]. It’s a good reminder as you said of keeping it real and the real politic, the issues that we've been talking about today and the conditions we can create together, as you said so beautifully at the beginning—brave spaces where people feel empowered. I hope it's a conversation that we can continue as your workshops continue. We should also mention that there are brand new gender-neutral toilets, and no mirrors. And as we said, if there are other things that we can be doing as a building to be making sure that the space that we're developing is keeping in mind these principles from the very beginning, then we want to hear—you know we’ll keep the conversation ongoing and open and reflective. It’s work that should have been done within the industry you know, forty or fifty years ago. So as a new organisation in a new space we don’t want this to be about a retrofit, we want to have these things very much in our DNA from the beginning. So that's why we're really happy to be doing this and so grateful to be talking with you about it all like this, thank you.